Curse

Bright Star Shine · May 16, 2011, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by darktyco

I would love it if UW quest completion was persistent, even if Chamber was required each run. Speed clearing is already so much more efficient (and less expensive) than rezoning in order to use specialized builds for different quests that I don't really believe the area will become much more farmable, just less of a pain to complete the whole thing. It is somewhat telling that you don't hear anyone calling for DoA or Slaver's to be switched to the UW's pita format.

Yes, but the thing they did with DoA is encourage people to do it in one go. You get a bigger reward if you do so, so doing it one area at a time is actually less productive. Also, each area in DoA is tough enough on itself and has a big enough variety of mobs. In UW, doing plains would be: "Bring nothing but caster hate" whilst Wrathful Spirits would be "bring heavy ench removal" and Mountains would be "bring heavy interrupts and melee hate" etc etc. Even if you have to repeat chamber every time, it would still be too abusive.

Chthon · May 16, 2011, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arm

why split uw up to make it easier?

People want to split up UW to make the time investment more sane. Making it easier is a side effect.

Xiaquin · May 16, 2011, 04:27 PM // 16:27

I understand it takes a lot of time and skill to expedite runs through elite content, and I respect the dedication and effort of players willing to invest time and effort. However, the problem I have with UW as an elite area is that it's not really about the technical challenge, it's the stress of either being forced to stretch your builds to work everywhere (and lose hours of your life) or being forced into splitting (the opposite of what a team game should be about).

That's not elite IMO, that's cruelly using the game to our disadvantage. The skill/AI of the enemies can only go so far; team tactics/power creep runs it over every time. What we end up with is a cheap way to give the illusion of difficulty, similar to the old NES games that give limited lives, no continues and force you to play through content you've already beaten to death just to make it to the harder levels, only to die and have to start all over.

The more I read, the more tiring it is to look for a solution. It's just sad that end-game isn't about the content, but the drops. If elite means self-torture and sinking more time than any gamer should be reasonably expected to invest in one sitting, I don't want to be elite. You guys have at it.

I just want to see Dhuum.

Godess Charmaine · May 16, 2011, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Thank you for getting this thread back on track.

As I have stated dont care about the sf or sc argument.

Uw was nerfed to slow done obvious abuse of scing we all know this.NEWS FLASH who cares, they revampted things and are still scing it without much diffculty.

So keep the content the way it is cept if you decide to go in alone for agument you have the opton of chosing a differnt path to the end.

You would get the opton of save progress so after you have cleared an area and restored the keeper you can save your progress, but not reset the area if you leave. you the renter at that locaton with everything the same.

That way there would be no results from farming an area once you have killed something its dead untill you have completed the entire thing.

lets face it the elete guys dont want normal ppl farming there uw so they get to keep all the goddies to show off, and thats what half the arguments are about, If everyone could farm ectos like they use to farm plains ecto prices would drop again ONO.and heaven help if we could all farm dhurm easly.

so take the farm opton completely out of the equation untill the entire quest chain is done everything that is killed stayes killedIE NO FARMING.ohh but that might bugger the elete guys farming plains again silly me

OHH AND NEWS FLASH GW2 is coming out so when it does do you really think ectos will be worth anything.

Kunder · May 16, 2011, 05:13 PM // 17:13

TBH, I have a hard time believing that any group capable of 4 horsemen would be at all fazed by anything else in UW. If you beat 4H, you have beaten UW, everything else is a formality (including Dhuum, who is an absolute laughing stock of a boss). I don't think overall difficulty is going to go down much by letting quests persist, Pubs will simply lose less progress when they fail at 4H because they are stupid and not doing it first.

Still, you could allay the concerns of making it "too easy" and pub group forming problems by combining it into different areas. e.g., 4 horsemen, imprisoned spirits and terrorweb queen get thrown into a "quest group" together. You only get credit for the 3 if you complete them all at once. Make 2 more groups, UW is effectively split into 3 parts which means even a fairly slow player need not spend more than 30-45 mins per section. And if someone wants to group together, you don't need to do an exhaustive quest list questioning, just say "Need part 1/3 of UW + Dhuum" or w/e.

Saldonus Darkholme · May 16, 2011, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Yes, but the thing they did with DoA is encourage people to do it in one go. You get a bigger reward if you do so, so doing it one area at a time is actually less productive. Also, each area in DoA is tough enough on itself and has a big enough variety of mobs. In UW, doing plains would be: "Bring nothing but caster hate" whilst Wrathful Spirits would be "bring heavy ench removal" and Mountains would be "bring heavy interrupts and melee hate" etc etc. Even if you have to repeat chamber every time, it would still be too abusive.

As opposed to, "Bring SF, done"?

You're arguing, "This area is being abused like crazy. If you change it it'll be abused like crazy."

This is the Ursan argument all over again! I can't believe I'm saying this, but SF DOES need a nerfing. If for no other reason, just to fit into the lore/story mechanic: Assassins weren't originally designed to be able to willingly aggro the entire map and stand there like a practice dummy, not taking any damage. They were supposed to rely on stealth, thus the shadowstepping.

Skyy High · May 16, 2011, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Yes, but the thing they did with DoA is encourage people to do it in one go. You get a bigger reward if you do so, so doing it one area at a time is actually less productive. Also, each area in DoA is tough enough on itself and has a big enough variety of mobs. In UW, doing plains would be: "Bring nothing but caster hate" whilst Wrathful Spirits would be "bring heavy ench removal" and Mountains would be "bring heavy interrupts and melee hate" etc etc. Even if you have to repeat chamber every time, it would still be too abusive.

You still would get a bigger reward if you did it all in one go, because you pay a fee every time you want to go in. The guy who does UW all in one go has paid 7k less than the guy who goes in 8 different times to finish it. Furthermore, in the situation you describe, where the player just farms one area over and over again, they're never going to get the end chest, which is where the real money is made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Still, you could allay the concerns of making it "too easy" and pub group forming problems by combining it into different areas. e.g., 4 horsemen, imprisoned spirits and terrorweb queen get thrown into a "quest group" together. You only get credit for the 3 if you complete them all at once. Make 2 more groups, UW is effectively split into 3 parts which means even a fairly slow player need not spend more than 30-45 mins per section. And if someone wants to group together, you don't need to do an exhaustive quest list questioning, just say "Need part 1/3 of UW + Dhuum" or w/e.

I would love this.

Bright Star Shine · May 16, 2011, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

You still would get a bigger reward if you did it all in one go, because you pay a fee every time you want to go in. The guy who does UW all in one go has paid 7k less than the guy who goes in 8 different times to finish it. Furthermore, in the situation you describe, where the player just farms one area over and over again, they're never going to get the end chest, which is where the real money is made.

Omg! I have to pay 7,000 more gold to get this done! Are you kidding me? 7k? That's the big difference?

I'm really getting fed up with people saying "SF makes you a god, and you'll never die." Whilst I'm pretty sure a lot of those people would die quite fast when trying to do some of the SCs. If SF makes you so godlike, why do so many people still fail when using it? hurrdurr. In the right hands, yes, it's a god skill, in the hands of casual players (you know, those people that make up the biggest part of this game) it usually results in failure.

Saldonus Darkholme · May 16, 2011, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

In the right hands, yes, it's a god skill, in the hands of casual players (you know, those people that make up the biggest part of this game) it usually results in failure.

Then why should ANEt cater to YOU, as opposed to, "those people that make up the biggest part of the game"?

Bright Star Shine · May 16, 2011, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saldonus Darkholme

Then why should ANEt cater to YOU, as opposed to, "those people that make up the biggest part of the game"?

I don't say they should. Anet can do whatever the hell they like if you ask me. If you reread my post, you'll see that I was ranting at players that bitch about the skill. I don't care which side Anet picks, because, on the end of the day, us, the SC'ers will still have found a way to clear an area as fast as we can.

Voodoo Rage · May 16, 2011, 06:46 PM // 18:46

The general mobs in the Underworld seem massively easier than DoA. I'm able to take a solo rit and pretty much clear the place. I took a full team into the Foundry yesterday and got my ass blown out of the water. Again, I'm not really experienced with the quests themselves but it seems like the difficulty must be the nature of the quests and not clearing the mobs to get to the quests. From people who do Underworld runs, what really makes this place "elite"? From just looking at the quest descriptions it looks like a whole bunch of running around and facing gimmicky quest instances where you need to know exactly what to do or some NPC is going to get killed and you get booted out of the whole thing. That doesn't seem "elite" to me, just tedious. DoA seems elite.

Kunder · May 16, 2011, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I'm really getting fed up with people saying "SF makes you a god, and you'll never die." Whilst I'm pretty sure a lot of those people would die quite fast when trying to do some of the SCs. If SF makes you so godlike, why do so many people still fail when using it? hurrdurr. In the right hands, yes, it's a god skill, in the hands of casual players (you know, those people that make up the biggest part of this game) it usually results in failure.

Pff, bullshit. Here is a timeline of my UW SCing as an assassin:

1. Checked pvx wiki. Took 5 mins.
2. Watched youtube. Took 15 mins.
3. Went to ToA, found a group. BSed them that the reason I didn't have their stupid stones was because my account was hacked (lulz). Took 30 mins.
4. Group fails first time because E/Mo fell asleep I think. Player kicked (obviously).
5. Group finishes second time attempt flawlessly. 3rd attempt too. Not a single word in chat about me being inexperienced.

So, absolutely 0 experience running a shadow form assassin ANYWHERE + 20 mins of research = able to run a SF sin in SC. Its a really easy RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing build to run, sorry. The difficulty is not being bored to death to the point where you forget to reactivate invincibility mode before it runs out. Thats the true reason people fail, because its so damn easy that they get overconfident and aren't paying attention. If I had to do a SC again I would probably be trying to find ways to multitask to alleviate the boredom and die every so often too.

Reformed · May 16, 2011, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

...where the player just farms one area over and over again, they're never going to get the end chest, which is where the real money is made.

No. Ecto flirted with 3k once precisely because people were farming an area over and over again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

...it seems like the difficulty must be the nature of the quests and not clearing the mobs to get to the quests.

NPCs are easily overwhelmed and the way the mobs spawn during a couple of the more challenging quests you need to snare them or split to stand a chance. If they removed the pincer attack used down there during those I'm sure the success rate would go way up.

Kunder · May 16, 2011, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

The general mobs in the Underworld seem massively easier than DoA. I'm able to take a solo rit and pretty much clear the place. I took a full team into the Foundry yesterday and got my ass blown out of the water. Again, I'm not really experienced with the quests themselves but it seems like the difficulty must be the nature of the quests and not clearing the mobs to get to the quests. From people who do Underworld runs, what really makes this place "elite"? From just looking at the quest descriptions it looks like a whole bunch of running around and facing gimmicky quest instances where you need to know exactly what to do or some NPC is going to get killed and you get booted out of the whole thing. That doesn't seem "elite" to me, just tedious. DoA seems elite.

4 Horsemen: 4 groups of AoE nukers (fire eles/PB mesmers) come at you simultaneously from two sides, and you have to protect a fairly vulnerable NPC from dieing or you lose. Doing it without gimmick tanks is essentially the hardest thing in PvE at the moment.

You are right though, everything else in UW is basically a tedious mess. The only things you need to know for the other quests is "don't take them if you aren't ready" and "have party stand at X location where enemies spawn to prevent them from killing NPCs" for a few. Then there are quests like Demon Assassin and Wrathful Spirits, which are an absolute joke that blind, deaf and dumb players with henchmen (not heroes) could easily finish. The whole area could use an overhaul, Anet doesn't care.

Bright Star Shine · May 16, 2011, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Pff, bullshit. Here is a timeline of my UW SCing as an assassin:

1. Checked pvx wiki. Took 5 mins.
2. Watched youtube. Took 15 mins.
3. Went to ToA, found a group. BSed them that the reason I didn't have their stupid stones was because my account was hacked (lulz). Took 30 mins.
4. Group fails first time because E/Mo fell asleep I think. Player kicked (obviously).
5. Group finishes second time attempt flawlessly. 3rd attempt too. Not a single word in chat about me being inexperienced.

So, absolutely 0 experience running a shadow form assassin ANYWHERE + 20 mins of research = able to run a SF sin in SC. Its a really easy RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing build to run, sorry. The difficulty is not being bored to death to the point where you forget to reactivate invincibility mode before it runs out. Thats the true reason people fail, because its so damn easy that they get overconfident and aren't paying attention. If I had to do a SC again I would probably be trying to find ways to multitask to alleviate the boredom and die every so often too.

Ha! And you say that SC'ers have too much epeen? I don't believe you for one instant, for more than obvious reasons. I have to agree that it's easy, and if you have done it once or twice you should be able to do it again, but the way you describe it sound like more than a load of BS to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Doing it without gimmick tanks is essentially the hardest thing in PvE at the moment.

You do realize that back in the day, when "super cool and elite" balanced ways would do UW, you would have 2 obby tanks generally who would tank shit when the rest of the team spikes (this sounds somewhat familiar, don't you think?) The ONLY difference that is between UW now and in '06 is that now the teams would split and do quests on their own. Back then you would have OF tanks tanking stuff and a team spiking it, the team wouldn't split up, that's the ONLY difference. So your "gimmicky tanks" existed in the long gone days you keep bitching about that were so great.

Kunder · May 16, 2011, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Ha! And you say that SC'ers have too much epeen? I don't believe you for one instant, for more than obvious reasons. I have to agree that it's easy, and if you have done it once or twice you should be able to do it again, but the way you describe it sound like more than a load of BS to me.

Keep telling yourself what you like. I'll line you up right next to person who today assured me that their pro discord team was an advanced and complex build that took a lot of skill to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

You do realize that back in the day, when "super cool and elite" balanced ways would do UW, you would have 2 obby tanks generally who would tank shit when the rest of the team spikes (this sounds somewhat familiar, don't you think?) The ONLY difference that is between UW now and in '06 is that now the teams would split and do quests on their own. Back then you would have OF tanks tanking stuff and a team spiking it, the team wouldn't split up, that's the ONLY difference. So your "gimmicky tanks" existed in the long gone days you keep bitching about that were so great.

Did anyone ever imply that UW was a well balanced area in the past? No? Doesn't mean it can't be fixed.

Bright Star Shine · May 17, 2011, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Did anyone ever imply that UW was a well balanced area in the past? No? Doesn't mean it can't be fixed.

Well, I keep hearing people say that UW and all this game for that matter should be done balanced way, and that SCs have raped the game in its nostrils and whatnot. But some seem to fail to grasp that back in the day, what was done, was the fastest way to do it, hence why they did it. It was semi balanced in such a way that you would always have 2 tanks making a solid wall and a spiker team. Also a monk bonder with Life Barrier and Life Bond usually. That was the old SC, nothing more, nothing less. Just because skills now allow us to do it about 4 times faster doesn't mean that it's bad, it's the natural way of things..

Godess Charmaine · May 17, 2011, 03:47 AM // 03:47

I will back Bright star shine, he, she has not said uw shouldnt be nerfed to allow finishing and the concept in this tread isnt about sc its about the time normal casuall players take to finish uw.

Stop going on about sc it isnt the problem now and has never been, its been around since day one that argument with either one build or another.its about making an area acessabel to all players now. some of us dont have massive time to spend 3 hrs clearing uw.NOTE we are the ones who are not interested in ecto farming or raping end boss for high treasure, we simply wantto finish the area buy doing every little bit of it.

Kill All Leave noone standing, thats more of a fun challenge to some of us then running thru an area in 30 mins to rape a boss and go woho look at me your all crap players.The game and areas where designed to be explored and its fun to do so.

All of you are on a sf /sc bash and if you cant crasp my point that most of us dont care about your liitle GOD complexes and we just enjoy the Game and would like to finish the one area you all have abused for 6 years with one gimic build or another and have made it harder then it was designed because of that. ITS A GAME you have changed it thru abuse now lets change it thru logical anayasis then worying about all your ego bs.

ps srry mods if its a little aggro pleas feel free to edit, cant belive some of these kidds

cheers

Chthon · May 17, 2011, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

4 Horsemen: 4 groups of AoE nukers (fire eles/PB mesmers) come at you simultaneously from two sides, and you have to protect a fairly vulnerable NPC from dieing or you lose. Doing it without gimmick tanks is essentially the hardest thing in PvE at the moment.

You are right though, everything else in UW is basically a tedious mess. The only things you need to know for the other quests is "don't take them if you aren't ready" and "have party stand at X location where enemies spawn to prevent them from killing NPCs" for a few. Then there are quests like Demon Assassin and Wrathful Spirits, which are an absolute joke that blind, deaf and dumb players with henchmen (not heroes) could easily finish. The whole area could use an overhaul, Anet doesn't care.

Servants of Grenth can be quite nasty for us non-invinci types -- if you can't kill fast enough, you end up with a thousand dryders on your head. Imprisoned Spirits is hard if you don't know the split or have to rely on heroes. Unwanted Guests is a lot harder when the Attaxe can actually hurt you. Dhuum hits really hard against non-gimmick groups. 4H is 4H. The rest are pretty easy.

Oh, and Wrathful Spirits used to be harder when the goal was to protect the friendly spirits. It was changed to respawning bunches of enemy spirits just to make it take longer for SC groups to finish the quest.

Elnino · May 17, 2011, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

but the way you describe it sound like more than a load of BS to me

Please tell us what is so hard about wathcing a skill recharging and using it when it runs out? To me, it's no different to maintaining an attunement, or is there a few more layers of depth required? Like, using it before you engage a mob(duh)? Cast SF on an enchant set(duh)?

Quote:

Well, I keep hearing people say that UW and all this game for that matter should be done balanced way

No. People are saying that UW should be completable with balanced way and that there should be a healthy mix of efficient builds that can complete UW. There should never only be one build (and it's variants) that is significantly more effective than all other possibilities (including balanced way). All builds should be equal in overall strength and weakness.

Quote:

SCs have raped the game in its nostrils

Well, they have definately killed the balance (not balanced builds) that was supposed to be present in this game.

Quote:

Just because skills now allow us to do it about 4 times faster doesn't mean that it's bad, it's the natural way of things..

Nothing is natural about the unnecessary and regretable buffs to certain skills in this game.